Cichlids of Victoria

CichlidsofVictoria.com is dedicated to the discussion and husbandry of African Cichlids especially the Victorian species
It is currently Wed Jun 28, 2017 11:07 am
  Arrange Blocks Arrange Blocks

Navigator
Online Users

In total there are 6 users online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 6 guests

Most users ever online was 144 on Fri May 11, 2012 7:35 am

Registered users: No registered users based on users active over the past 5 minutes





This banner is placed in support of my children and their band "Half8n"
May all their hopes and dreams come true.
Help me out! Just click play, Really its 10 minutes of your life... Can you think of 10 minutes you have wasted doing even less?

Stop by and check out their website at http://www.half8n.com
Thank you, Allen
Post a new topic Post a reply 
Page 1 of 3      [ 32 posts ] Next topic { BOTTOM } Who posted Bookmark topic Previous topic
Go to page  1, 2, 3  
Author Message
 Post subject: Victorian ID - A can of worms?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 2:03 pm 
Offline
Website Creation Team Site Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2009 5:18 am
Posts: 409
Images: 22
Location: Columbus, Ohio Flag
DWFISH";p="606 wrote:
The photo's I have I sent to Greg and he confirmed that they are a fire red and it is a paralibdochromis. I bought them as uganda fire reds. So what do you do. When we use the term Haplochromis we are opening a can of worms.


Are we really ready for a serious Victorian cichlid discussion in this young forum? Please take the following as my opinion and not as some guy trying to be a know it all.

Vic ID is an imperfect science. We all try to do our best, but there are simply too many similar species to be certain of many of them. Most have not been classified and likely never will be. Many of the hobbyists who tell me they know they have a "pure" species because they bought them from a reputable breeder are really just fooling themselves, unless they can really trace their roots back to the lake. (This doesn't apply to the vics with a unique appearance.) So I say that we need to recognize that some of the fish we (including myself) keep may not be as pure as we think and that is just something to be expected with victorians. If you see any of my fish that you doubt the ID you will not hurt my feelings or bruise my ego. If we can have that type of free and open discussions without feeling attacked here then we really have something.

For example; I believe that the Haplochromis sp. "Red Tail Sheller" (common name = Blue Neon) has never been officially classified. Greg Steeves has studied it with more than an average hobbyists eye and determined that it would most likely be placed in the genus Platytaeniodus if some one wrote the proper scientific paper. I think it is fantastic that Greg is doing this but it doesn't mean that this is genus assignment is accepted by everyone. So when one says that Haplochromis sp. "fire" (common name = Fire Red Ugandan) is really in the genus Paralabidochromis you should be cognizant that those still using Haplochromis are not less up to date on the naming convention.

Comments?

Kevin


Thu Aug 27, 2009 2:03 pm
Profile       
Gender place holder
Top
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 3:21 pm 
Offline
Associate Admin
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2009 9:02 pm
Posts: 569
Images: 3
We are a new forum.
We certainly are not experts on this fish, I have a rudimentary knowledge about this fish.

We are simply a forum to facilitate learning.
Overtime we hope to have experts here with us, and in turn our own knowledge base will also expand.

Anybody who comes here now to this forum I think can tell we are learning ourselves.

I figure after about 6 months we will have more solid people here, and it will be clear this is the place to go for Victorian information.

As far as pure fish goes.
I have been around fish for many years, and i have met most of the big names in person (luck of living in california).
I have also met alot of people that are bad, those that stretch the truth about what they really have.
There are plenty of people who sell F2 fish as wild or F1.
there are plenty of people who sell mixed fish as pure.
with intent.

With Victorians, there very well may be alot of fish that are of mixed blood.
We all may have plenty of them.
But i think we are not doing it with intent.
so we do the best we can to try and find pure fish.

with many species there is a variety, not all members of a species are clones of each other, so I do expect people to see 2 different fish and not agree that they are the same.
this does not mean that the 2 fish are different or one is a hybrid, though either can be the case.

I hope that within a year we can have a profile page that shows a couple of examples each species.
Just with the amount of people we have now i think we must have at least 25 different types.
By the end of the year i think 50 would not be out of the question.
50 profiles would be fantastic.
Maybe everyone can PM me, or post each type they have, we can list it on a profile page, then people can start submitting pix.


I hope that somehow we can come to an agreement to acceptable features for each type.
Perhaps someday we can get people like Mark Phillip Smith, Chuck Rambo, Greg Steeves and Ole Seehausen to help us out in whatever capacity they can.
But its funny, us hobbyist don't always agree, but neither do the experts many times.

I talk to Chuck now and then in person, I'm a internet pal with Mr. Steeves so i myself hope to improve on my VIC kung fu!


Thu Aug 27, 2009 3:21 pm
Gender place holder
Top
 Post subject: Re: Victorian ID - A can of worms?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:03 pm 
Offline
Website Creation Team Site Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2009 5:18 am
Posts: 409
Images: 22
Location: Columbus, Ohio Flag
I wasn't talking about sellers that choose to deceive. I've purchased quite a few mis-identified Victorians from very experienced very well meaning breeders I respect. I just wanted to make the point that there are a lot of unknowns in the world of Victorians and we often suffer from the "that's what I bought it as" identifications. I have, what I hope, is a healthy bit of skepticism in every purchase. And if the fish I buy turns out to be something else, I don't get upset since it often a function of a small knowledgebase about vics.

Kevin


Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:03 pm
Profile       
Gender place holder
Top
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:30 pm 
Offline
Associate Admin
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2009 9:02 pm
Posts: 569
Images: 3
As long as i been in the fish hobby, Im very skeptical.
No matter who the seller is.
I know people who will claim with 100% certainty about what they have.
Yet they never collected the fish, so they can't be.

So some lie with intent, some simply don't know what they have and go with what was sold to them.
You do the best you can, but I know darn well even though i buy from reputable dealers that I actually know fairly well in person, the fish could be something else.

If i buy a Victorian as something from a reputable dealer, and another expert disagrees with the naming I will certainly take that into consideration.

But as you said, there is alot of unknown with the fish.
And even the experts have been wrong.
There is disagreement on the name of the only victorian i have.
And they came from a person who is published every quarter.

when buying we do the best we can, and in the case of Victorians people should have the understanding that the fish they get may not be what they thought.

But still, people pay money, and they flip out.
I'd flip out if i bought 1500 worth of Moba and I got Mikula.
I'm not so pissed about 75 bucks worth of Victorians.
Actually the shipping cost more than my victorians.

If a dealer gives us a name of a fish, thats all we can go by till proven otherwise.
There is simply not alot of books on the fish, or experts that we all have access to.
In time we hope that this website will be the best place to ID a fish, and hook people up with good breeders.

_________________
Have you added pictures of your Cichlids Of Victoria species to our profile page?
It only takes a minute.
http://www.cichlidsofvictoria.com/album ... p?cat_id=1


Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:30 pm
Gender place holder
Top
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 7:41 pm 
Offline
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 6:08 am
Posts: 952
Images: 149
Location: Tampa. FL Flag
the idea of proper identification of vics is mind blowing to me. if you look at lake malawi and the research done there it is really light years away.

also when you look at two separate lines of breeding you will get variations of a single species. i noticed this when trying to id my pundamilia nyerei pythons on a eu forum. they told me the could not id the fish since the american strain looks very different then their strains.

i think they meant it had been crossed with other strains resulting in a new strain with the same name. but what are we to do?

just keep the fish as separate as possible and correctly name them. using 3 different names for one fish can get confusing. especially when you are talking about the latin name and not common ones.

either way i think we should try to get the most current list of ids we can without going to the lake. that way the fish that will be coming out can be properly id. as best as possible.

_________________
living the dream :wink:


Looking for hard to find supplies, check us out on the web.
www.ftffacoop.com


Thu Aug 27, 2009 7:41 pm
Gender place holder
Top
 Post subject: Re: Victorian ID - A can of worms?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 7:46 pm 
Offline
Associate Admin

Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2009 3:49 pm
Posts: 1686
Images: 11
Location: Kingsburg CA Flag
When it come to Victorians I'm very skeptical when it comes to buying them. I know someone that live 20 miles from me that sales "Crimson Tide"and they are crossed with Pundamilia Nyererei (Ruti Is.). He uses the "Crimson Tide" male and Pundamilia Nyererei females. He also crosses collection point with Pundamilia Nyererei. He says they are all the same fish it really dose not matter. With my frontosa background this did not set will with me. I would be blackballed from he frontosa world if I did this with my frontosa.

When I show pictures of my Vic's I would love any comments. If you do not think it is what I paid for please tell me. The last thing I want to do is sale mislabeled fry. I do a lot of research before I buy any Victorians. Even then I can get the wrong fish or a cross bred fish. I'm really hoping my Uganda Reds are Uganda reds. I got my WC Demansoni from Old World and was very happy. I was hoping for the thing with my Uganda reds.

I can see how some people would get upset when it comes to this. I'm one that will listen to what everyone has to say.


Last edited by Big Jim on Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Thu Aug 27, 2009 7:46 pm
Profile       
Gender place holder
Top
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 8:01 pm 
Offline
Associate Admin
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2009 9:02 pm
Posts: 569
Images: 3
Its really not that difficult to have two groups of pure fish that look different.

If two countries both get the same fish, there is a good chance that over time they may select for different features.
Some countries like size and color, other countries may try harder to mimic exactly the wild feature.

You order two pairs of wild fish from exact same place, lets say they are clones.
you then place them in two tanks, we will call them line A and Line B.

In line A you select for Red and big body.
In line B you select for yellow and narrow body.

In 5 years, though you have not cross bred your fish, you now have created 2 fish that look different, and yet are still pure.

Now imagine if different people breed your same type of fish in a different city, state, country.

some will try to select for how the fish looks in the wild, some will select for something else, and sometimes the fish themself will select for a look not like wild.

So over time, though we may have the same pure fish, they will look different.
Now we add in the slight variations that a fish in the wild will have, and its compounded.
Add in crossbreeding, and its worse.

I know of certain people who actually sell mismatched females of peacocks, vics, guppies you name it, so people can't reproduce their stock.
Its a very old breeder trick.

the only way to make sure you got the correct female is to hormone them so they look like males. another old breeder trick.


Thu Aug 27, 2009 8:01 pm
Gender place holder
Top
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 11:01 am 
Offline
Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2009 9:11 am
Posts: 475
Images: 21
tr6";p="610 wrote:
We are a new forum.
We certainly are not experts on this fish, I have a rudimentary knowledge about this fish.

We are simply a forum to facilitate learning.
Overtime we hope to have experts here with us, and in turn our own knowledge base will also expand.

Anybody who comes here now to this forum I think can tell we are learning ourselves.

I figure after about 6 months we will have more solid people here, and it will be clear this is the place to go for Victorian information.

As far as pure fish goes.
I have been around fish for many years, and i have met most of the big names in person (luck of living in california).
I have also met alot of people that are bad, those that stretch the truth about what they really have.
There are plenty of people who sell F2 fish as wild or F1.
there are plenty of people who sell mixed fish as pure.
with intent.

With Victorians, there very well may be alot of fish that are of mixed blood.
We all may have plenty of them.
But i think we are not doing it with intent.
so we do the best we can to try and find pure fish.

with many species there is a variety, not all members of a species are clones of each other, so I do expect people to see 2 different fish and not agree that they are the same.
this does not mean that the 2 fish are different or one is a hybrid, though either can be the case.

I hope that within a year we can have a profile page that shows a couple of examples each species.
Just with the amount of people we have now i think we must have at least 25 different types.
By the end of the year i think 50 would not be out of the question.
50 profiles would be fantastic.
Maybe everyone can PM me, or post each type they have, we can list it on a profile page, then people can start submitting pix.


I hope that somehow we can come to an agreement to acceptable features for each type.
Perhaps someday we can get people like Mark Phillip Smith, Chuck Rambo, Greg Steeves and Ole Seehausen to help us out in whatever capacity they can.
But its funny, us hobbyist don't always agree, but neither do the experts many times.

I talk to Chuck now and then in person, I'm a internet pal with Mr. Steeves so i myself hope to improve on my VIC kung fu!


The profiles section is already in the works. Here is the link to help get it started. After we get the ball rolling I will add a link to the navigation directing people to the profiles section of this website.

http://www.cichlidsofvictoria.com/album ... 903a99fa2b

_________________
Fishing for Knowledge

www.frontosa.com


Fri Aug 28, 2009 11:01 am
Gender place holder
Top
 Post subject: Re: Victorian ID - A can of worms?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 3:51 pm 
Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:33 pm
Posts: 694
Images: 99
i have been monitoring this thread and waitibng to add my little two cents.

with most the fish in the hobby as far as vics are concerned i think there may be a high chance that some where along the line they may have been crossed. with all of the above post in this thread that are in my opinion acurate in every sence of the word it make sit all the more important that with the species that we know are w/c like thoes from the 2007 shippment to old world that much documentation should be made and many pictures taken in all the various gcolor forms of dress that they present.
as far as i know and there may be more but what came in were mbipia mbipi, and paralibidochromis rock kribs mwanza, and pundamilia nyereri mwanza. maybe soem one who knows more than i about that could speak better on it. my point is at least we do have some here that we know fairly cirtian are the real deal.
as for the rest its a crap shoot.
unless you cut them open count teeth and do blood work no one really knows


Fri Aug 28, 2009 3:51 pm
Gender place holder
Top
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 7:34 pm 
Offline
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 6:08 am
Posts: 952
Images: 149
Location: Tampa. FL Flag
ah mwanza, i see that all the time from "Censored Reference to a vendor that is not welcome to be promoted on this website." on aquabid.

i never saw that before and thought it was a gimic name to sell fish. heh...

_________________
living the dream :wink:


Looking for hard to find supplies, check us out on the web.
www.ftffacoop.com


Fri Aug 28, 2009 7:34 pm
Gender place holder
Top
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 8:08 pm 
Offline
Associate Admin

Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2009 3:49 pm
Posts: 1686
Images: 11
Location: Kingsburg CA Flag
Yes he did get one male and he is breeding them with ruti island females. So now what do we call his fry he is selling to people across America.

_________________
Big Jim
http://www.jnjcichlids.com/
2800 gallons and growing

"When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes DUTY!"
Thomas Jefferson.


Fri Aug 28, 2009 8:08 pm
Profile       
Gender place holder
Top
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 4:44 am 
Offline
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 6:08 am
Posts: 952
Images: 149
Location: Tampa. FL Flag
bad marketing

_________________
living the dream :wink:


Looking for hard to find supplies, check us out on the web.
www.ftffacoop.com


Sat Aug 29, 2009 4:44 am
Gender place holder
Top
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 11:58 am 
Offline
Jr. Member

Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2009 10:56 am
Posts: 47
I'm with deadman, he hit it right on the spot, but I may say that everyone views are good. I think we are just getting wacked out because people look at books and try to guess what it is and than they just put a name on it. But one thing they do know is that it is a haplochromis. Why! Because there is so little info on these fish and all the old book refer to them as haplochromis.



deadman1";p="634 wrote:
i have been monitoring this thread and waitibng to add my little two cents.

with most the fish in the hobby as far as vics are concerned i think there may be a high chance that some where along the line they may have been crossed. with all of the above post in this thread that are in my opinion acurate in every sence of the word it make sit all the more important that with the species that we know are w/c like thoes from the 2007 shippment to old world that much documentation should be made and many pictures taken in all the various gcolor forms of dress that they present.
as far as i know and there may be more but what came in were mbipia mbipi, and paralibidochromis rock kribs mwanza, and pundamilia nyereri mwanza. maybe soem one who knows more than i about that could speak better on it. my point is at least we do have some here that we know fairly cirtian are the real deal.
as for the rest its a crap shoot.
unless you cut them open count teeth and do blood work no one really knows


Sat Aug 29, 2009 11:58 am
Profile       
Gender place holder
Top
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 7:56 pm 
Offline
Member

Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 7:11 pm
Posts: 194
Images: 11
True that...


Sat Aug 29, 2009 7:56 pm
Gender place holder
Top
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:24 am 
Offline
dre_day wrote:
ah mwanza, i see that all the time from "Censored Reference to a vendor that is not welcome to be promoted on this website." on aquabid.


If not a promotion, what about a warning? I'm not yet 'in' enough to know (for sure) who you mean..

(A little necromancy, there. Sorry.)


Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:24 am
       
Gender place holder
Top
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Page 1 of 3      [ 32 posts ] Next topic Top Who posted Bookmark topic Previous topic
Go to page  1, 2, 3  
Post a new topic Post a reply


Who is online

Registered users: No registered users


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
cron
The teamDelete all board cookiesContact Board Administration • All times are UTC - 8 hours

phpBBIntegraMODStargate Portal