Cichlids of Victoria

CichlidsofVictoria.com is dedicated to the discussion and husbandry of African Cichlids especially the Victorian species
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 Post subject: Re: Victorian ID - A can of worms?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:17 am 
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I know you got your xanoptheryx from Rare Dave and they certainly look very good to me.

But if you buy X. phytophagus (Xmas Fulu), Hap dayglow or Kyoga flamebacks just be aware that there is very little consistency in the market place at the moment.

Then there is the problem that the stores are calling almost anything a "flameback" or an obliquidens.

My old post was just trying to make sure we could question the ID of each others fish without taking offense. An often difficult thing for many people to accept on internet forums but very necessary if you are going to keep Victorians.

Then there are all the genus assignments that are likely correct but not actually validated or accepted by everyone. A lot of posts state "that fish has been assigned to the genus ....." when in fact that's not exactly true at all.

Not trying to be controversial. Just a heads up.

Kevin

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Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:17 am
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 Post subject: Re: Victorian ID - A can of worms?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:48 am 
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KevinB wrote:
Not trying to be controversial. Just a heads up.
Kevin


Quite the contrary, that all sounds right and good and true to me. I surely appreciate the information, too.


Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:48 am
       
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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 7:54 pm 
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Alowishus wrote:
If not a promotion, what about a warning? I'm not yet 'in' enough to know (for sure) who you mean..

(A little necromancy, there. Sorry.)


He is almost out of business. He has only 1 or 2 auctions up on Aquabid. I don't know what happen he just starting to disappear. Email me or Allen and we will tell you.

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Tue Mar 22, 2011 7:54 pm
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 Post subject: Re: Victorian ID - A can of worms?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 8:07 pm 
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I have seen the accidental mislabeling of something, and if it is truly by accident, I don't take offense, just wish someone would do a bit more homework here and there, and try to find what they can as best as they can.

What I do mind is people choosing to remain ignorant of the differences between the strains. I work at a LFS, and even there I've heard workers say "yeah, most of those Vics are just really the same thing, just come from different spots in the lake". However, they would never say the same things about Malawians or Tangs, as BigJim points out. However, until more research is done it is much more difficult to say "YES, these two fish are different for reasons of 1, 2, 3.." and so on.

It is a bit frustrating when one runs across this-the same people wouldn't dare think of crossing A. stuartgranti cobwe with A. stuartgranti Ngara-but when it comes to Vics that's ok?!


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 Post subject: Re: Victorian ID - A can of worms?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 6:26 am 
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KevinB wrote:
Not trying to be controversial.

Kevin



I think this site is best and most true when it's a bit controversial. Victorians could be known as 'the controversial cichlids' and it would be fitting for the time being. That's part of the greatness is unraveling the mystery and separating justified controversy with verifiable facts. We have the discussion of collection points all the time on frontosa.com and there we have the same species with several different looks, but the hard core keepers understand, just because a fish is the same species does not mean it is the same fish. I don't think anyone that has ever really researched vics even a little bit could believe they are the same fish, and that mixing them is not an issue. Unless they think there is only one color red, and they may as well all be mixed together into one color before painting a sunset, and if such a person really exists either their eyes are going, or their brain is going.


Fri Mar 25, 2011 6:26 am
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 Post subject: Re: Victorian ID - A can of worms?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:08 am 
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TwistedSister wrote:
It is a bit frustrating when one runs across this-the same people wouldn't dare think of crossing A. stuartgranti cobwe with A. stuartgranti Ngara-but when it comes to Vics that's ok?!


This is the reason we started this forum. We want to help inform people about Victorian cichlids. We want people to know how special these cichlids are, and how endangered they are in the wild. We also want people to learn about collection points and not to mix collection points. If you look at the Pundamilia nyererei and all the collection points you can see major differences in some of them. We would like to keep it this way.

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Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:08 am
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 Post subject: Re: Victorian ID - A can of worms?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 6:30 pm 
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Well said Big Jim.


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 Post subject: Re: Victorian ID - A can of worms?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 4:24 am 
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Me wrote:
I think this site is best and most true when it's a bit controversial. Victorians could be known as 'the controversial cichlids' and it would be fitting for the time being. That's part of the greatness is unraveling the mystery and separating justified controversy with verifiable facts.


Yea, Todd understands. Having any conversation on any internet forum without hurt feelings, bruised egos or (worst case) flame wars can be difficult at times. Due to the limited knowledge base on Victorian cichlids, one must rely more on personal opinion and personal experience than other types of cichlids. So disagreements and incorrect identifications are much more prevalent leading to a higher potential for hurt feelings, bruised ....etc.

Kevin

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 Post subject: Re: Victorian ID - A can of worms?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 2:32 am 
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Hi May I add my little piec to the masterpiece :lol:
Here's the validated genus by a scientific description
Haplochromis( it has a generic meaning)
Mbipia
Lithochromis
Neochromis
Pundamilia
Pyxichromis
Astatoreochromis
Platytaeniodus
Macropleurodus
Hoplotilapia

here are the subgenus not yet validated and most of them with incertain statut
Harpagochromis
Prognathochromis( this both are not yet valid because the latest description by Leiden university (2008) assigne them to Haplochromis generic genus)
Yssichromis
Astatotilapia( this subgenus is a mess because many different head shaped fishes can be put in it)
Xystichromis( this sub-genus is not yet valid because some of its species has been assigned to Mbipia genus or Haplochromis)
Enterochromis
Paralabidochromis( this one has not been validated because P.sauvagei was described as H.sauvagei by Seegers in 2008)
lipochromis
and most of the Greenwood genera.


I know that in the US most of the people use Greenwood genera as genus but following the latest scientific papers, this is not scientifically valid.
xris
:)


Sun Mar 27, 2011 2:32 am
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 Post subject: Re: Victorian ID - A can of worms?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 7:59 am 
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Xristof, would you put me on to some of these papers, please? Links, journal titles, etc.? Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Victorian ID - A can of worms?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 8:49 am 
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I recently got 2 hap ruby greens, as they grew their body shape was off as was the color slightly. So they became an expensive snack for my flowerhorns. Notified the seller that they were off because of A B and C and that he may want to verify the ID on them. Didn't ask for my money back because mistakes happen often with vics. Got a very nasty response coupled with him saying his are so pure he has sold hundreds of them...
Turned into a bunch of dumb drama and I am no longer welcome on that forum mostly because I called his fish into question.

So feel free to call any of my fish into question! I would rather know than not!!!
Vics are vics and like yall said they are hard to properly ID

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 Post subject: Re: Victorian ID - A can of worms?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:22 pm 
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Alo
yes i'll list them and send yu the result.
xris :)


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 Post subject: Re: Victorian ID - A can of worms?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:38 am 
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xristof wrote:
Alo
yes i'll list them and send yu the result.
xris :)


Grand. Thanks very much!


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 Post subject: Re: Victorian ID - A can of worms?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:32 pm 
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Very nice breakdown xristof,

Ahhh I love this stuff. Well Put Kevin, and Fern. If we are not critical of our Vics, and willing to share our opinions about the vics of others we are doing nothing to help them. Vic keepers need to have thick skin, but not thick heads ;)


Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:32 pm
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 Post subject: Re: Victorian ID - A can of worms?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 7:21 pm 
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are thoes earth worms in that can or tennesee nightcrawlers? 8)

good discussion people.

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