Cichlids of Victoria

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 Post subject: Lake Victoria Cichlid confusion in Australia ID's required
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:05 pm 
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In Australia there are inconsistencies in import laws regarding which species are allowed into the country. However once here it is not illegal to posess them as they are not on the "Noxious List". But the inability to import means we have to conserve what is here.

We have huge anamolies in the trade name of Cichlids. For example, "Flameback" is used for any P. nyererei fish, as a result only private breeders and collectors have named location variants and "Flamebacks" are a mish mash. Over here "Crimson Tide" is the trade name of A. latifasciata. I think when the original fish arrived the importer tried to "sexy" the names of the fish up.

So the TLDR version. We have "Christmas Fulu" which is not X. phytopagus (I think they may have arrived here but are no longer around).

What we have is a bunch of hybrid fish that are going around as "Christmas Fulus". There also seem to be some "pure species" around but different ones.

I have asked around for "Christmas Fulu" owners to send me pictures so I can try to disambiguate the situation. I will put one picture or set up at a time. But I really need to work out what are hybrids and which are "pure" strains if possible and give names to the pure strains.

These 3 shots are from the same colony.
Image

Image

Image


Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:05 pm
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 Post subject: Re: Lake Victoria Cichlid confusion in Australia ID's requir
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:54 pm 
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Hi If they came from the same brood, then ther are good chances to be hybrids.
xris :)


Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:54 pm
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 Post subject: Re: Lake Victoria Cichlid confusion in Australia ID's requir
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:31 am 
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The top photo is the dominant male. The second photo I think is the same male only younger. The third is a juvenile either from the same batch when they were first bought or offspring from the first male.

Apparently there is a hybrid aquarium strain of Neochromis rufocaudalis going around in Europe and some fish in Australia fit that description. The 1st picture appears to be N. rufocaudalis but appearances can be deceiving. I don't know what juveniles look like growing up so can't comment.


Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:31 am
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 Post subject: Re: Lake Victoria Cichlid confusion in Australia ID's requir
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:49 pm 
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mattrox wrote:
In Australia there are inconsistencies in import laws regarding which species are allowed into the country. However once here it is not illegal to posess them as they are not on the "Noxious List". But the inability to import means we have to conserve what is here.

I've always thought that the import laws in Australia made it difficult to bring in pure bred fish from any source (wild or not from) outside the country increasing the difficulty of being assured of what you are buying. Hobbyists in Australia have posted many pictures of Victorian cichlids on forums for quite a few years and unfortunately, the vast majority of them look like hybrids. Without a fresh source of stock, it has to be difficult to maintain the purity over a period of many years

mattrox wrote:
We have huge anamolies in the trade name of Cichlids. For example, "Flameback" is used for any P. nyererei fish, as a result only private breeders and collectors have named location variants

It isn't all that different in the US. If you buy a "flameback" in the US, it could be P. nyererei, H. sp. "flameback", H. sp. "Kyoga flameback" or almost anything else. No one in the US truly knows where their nyererei were collected from but everyone looks at pictures on the internet and gives them a location name based on the physical appearance.

mattrox wrote:
What we have is a bunch of hybrid fish that are going around as "Christmas Fulus". There also seem to be some "pure species" around..........

Once again, it's tha same here in the US. There are actually quite a few good quality Xystichromis phytophagus in the US hobby, but right now there are also a whole lot of hybrids being sold as Xmas fulus.

Kevin

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Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:49 pm
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 Post subject: Re: Lake Victoria Cichlid confusion in Australia ID's requir
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:55 pm 
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mattrox wrote:
The top photo is the dominant male. The second photo I think is the same male only younger. The third is a juvenile either from the same batch when they were first bought or offspring from the first male.

Apparently there is a hybrid aquarium strain of Neochromis rufocaudalis going around in Europe and some fish in Australia fit that description. The 1st picture appears to be N. rufocaudalis but appearances can be deceiving. I don't know what juveniles look like growing up so can't comment.


It's tought identifying Victorians from pictures unless you have a full profile shot of a dominant male in full color. Your fish don't look like Neochromis to me. Most Neochromis have a very rounded "face" but it could just be the angle of the photo. Looking at the first photo I thought you had Pundamilia pundamilia (old common name = zebra nyererei) but then in the second picture I see some yellow color which rules that out.

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 Post subject: Re: Lake Victoria Cichlid confusion in Australia ID's requir
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:23 pm 
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I posted that picture first because of it's more distinctive shape.

Now I dug up a picture of a supposed A. brownae from an old issue of Australian Aquarium Magazine which is now defunct.
Image
But I have no way of verifying that it is a true specimen. First I need to establish what a real brownae looks like. There is a chance that there might be some true specimens out there.

And some of our Christmas Fulus resemble this picture, some closely like this one which is perhaps and older specimen.
Image
The red tips of fins are washed out compared to the top picture. This happens often here with different species with the shallow gene pool. This could also occur with hybridisation.

This is of similar body form but has a red patch on a yellowish body. This specimen is not in full colour but to me seems a hybrid. Perhaps a A. sp. 44 cross.
Image


Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:23 pm
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 Post subject: Re: Lake Victoria Cichlid confusion in Australia ID's requir
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:28 pm 
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KevinB wrote:
mattrox wrote:
The top photo is the dominant male. The second photo I think is the same male only younger. The third is a juvenile either from the same batch when they were first bought or offspring from the first male.

Apparently there is a hybrid aquarium strain of Neochromis rufocaudalis going around in Europe and some fish in Australia fit that description. The 1st picture appears to be N. rufocaudalis but appearances can be deceiving. I don't know what juveniles look like growing up so can't comment.


It's tought identifying Victorians from pictures unless you have a full profile shot of a dominant male in full color. Your fish don't look like Neochromis to me. Most Neochromis have a very rounded "face" but it could just be the angle of the photo. Looking at the first photo I thought you had Pundamilia pundamilia (old common name = zebra nyererei) but then in the second picture I see some yellow color which rules that out.

Kevin


Kevin, I concur, the first 2 pictures do not resemble a neochromis as I have the batch I got from Big Jim and none have shown any yellow what so ever, I have to say the ones shown are hybrids. JMHO as I am still learning a lot about these wonderful fish


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 Post subject: Re: Lake Victoria Cichlid confusion in Australia ID's requir
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:30 pm 
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I am sure you are right. Dr. Seehausen has given info that indicates it is part of a hybrid strain that is present in Europe.

I am amazed at the myriad of fish that don't even in the slightest look like X. phytophagus that have been passed on as Christmas Fulus.

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 Post subject: Re: Lake Victoria Cichlid confusion in Australia ID's requir
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:10 am 
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mattrox wrote:
I posted that picture first because of it's more distinctive shape.

Now I dug up a picture of a supposed A. brownae from an old issue of Australian Aquarium Magazine which is now defunct.
Image
But I have no way of verifying that it is a true specimen. First I need to establish what a real brownae looks like. There is a chance that there might be some true specimens out there.

And some of our Christmas Fulus resemble this picture, some closely like this one which is perhaps and older specimen.
Image
The red tips of fins are washed out compared to the top picture. This happens often here with different species with the shallow gene pool. This could also occur with hybridisation.
These two fishes seem to be from the same species and show similarities with H.brownae


This is of similar body form but has a red patch on a yellowish body. This specimen is not in full colour but to me seems a hybrid. Perhaps a A. sp. 44 cross.
Image

This one seems to be a mix of sp44 and something else.
xris :)


Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:10 am
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 Post subject: Re: Lake Victoria Cichlid confusion in Australia ID's requir
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:07 am 
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I have done a bit of digging. I have found that there was confusion about the proper scientific names. When A. brownae was introduced someone decided to call them Christmas Fulus...... Now when the internet arrived people could search Christmas Fulu and find out that they were X. phytophagus.

Here are two posts from 2005 from an Australian Forum that illustrates the confusion.
[quote name='davez104' timestamp='1111637436' post='87121']

Thanks mate, That pic looks a lot like the ones I have. The guy I brought them off is sure that brownae and phytophagus are the same fish so that is why he calls them phytophagus. He showed me some literature that backed up his claim but most reading I can find say they are two different fish. I will keep looking into it, but for the time being I will call the first fish phytophagus and the second brownae.

Thanks again.

[/quote]

[quote name='slinky' timestamp='1109510196' post='82414']


QUOTE (davez104 @ Feb 27th 2005 @ 06:40 )
Haplochromis (Neochromis) migricans,

Astatotilapia aneocolor "Yellow Belly Lake Albert",

Haplochromis sp. "Fire Red Ugandan",

Ptyochromis sp. "salmon"

Platytaeniodus degeni






honestly i dont think u would find these in aus, i might be wrong (fish in basement..lol).


but u would find:

Astatotilapia latifasciatus

Haplochromis burtoni

Astatotilapia calliptera

Xystichromis phytophagus (formerly Haplochromis brownae, i think)

Pundamilia nyererei


most on the list should be easily obtainable.


hope that helped mate


slinky

[/quote].


So that explains the brownae type fish adequately. Now to try and see if there are pure brownae.

Thanks xris


Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:07 am
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 Post subject: Re: Lake Victoria Cichlid confusion in Australia ID's requir
PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:23 pm 
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I have got some pictures of real brownae which I'm posting out of interest.

Image

Image

Image

Image

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Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:23 pm
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