Cichlids of Victoria

CichlidsofVictoria.com is dedicated to the discussion and husbandry of African Cichlids especially the Victorian species
It is currently Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:37 pm
  Arrange Blocks Arrange Blocks

Navigator
Online Users

In total there are 6 users online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 6 guests

Most users ever online was 144 on Fri May 11, 2012 7:35 am

Registered users: No registered users based on users active over the past 5 minutes





This banner is placed in support of my children and their band "Half8n"
May all their hopes and dreams come true.
Help me out! Just click play, Really its 10 minutes of your life... Can you think of 10 minutes you have wasted doing even less?

Stop by and check out their website at http://www.half8n.com
Thank you, Allen
Post a new topic Post a reply 
Page 1 of 2      [ 19 posts ] Next topic { BOTTOM } Who posted Bookmark topic Previous topic
Go to page  1, 2  
Author Message
 Post subject: Blue Fir Fins or not
PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 6:05 pm 
Offline
Jr. Member

Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 4:52 pm
Posts: 69
Images: 2
There has bee a big debate on this fish. I acquired 6 breeding size fish (2 m and 4 f) from a local breeder. He says they are Hap. sp. Blue Fire Fins. I am not a Vic expert so I assume he was right.

This is what I have observed. The subdominant males and young males do not exhibit the dark coloring. They have a red top and an olive bottom.

If I get in the tank to clean it, the dominant dark males, fad to the same pattern if not almost silver.

Now there is some debate on if these are blue fire fins.

I am hoping that someone can help. Unfortanately, I do not have a decent color, so the pictures will be crap.

Open the discusion.

Image

Image

Image

Image



Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image


Mon Nov 01, 2010 6:05 pm
Profile       
Gender place holder
Top
 Post subject: Re: Blue Fir Fins or not
PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 6:28 pm 
Offline
Jr. Member

Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 4:52 pm
Posts: 69
Images: 2
More crappy pictures, but, this all I have

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image


Mon Nov 01, 2010 6:28 pm
Profile       
Gender place holder
Top
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 3:27 am 
Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:33 pm
Posts: 694
Images: 99
this is the offspring of the above fish
Image
Image
Image
Image

_________________
PARALIBIDOCHROMIS CHILOTES WANTED. 8)


Last edited by deadman on Tue Nov 02, 2010 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Tue Nov 02, 2010 3:27 am
Gender place holder
Top
 Post subject: Re: Blue Fir Fins or not
PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 4:54 am 
Offline
Jr. Member

Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 4:52 pm
Posts: 69
Images: 2
Something that has been bouncing around my head ever since I had a dark morph variant appear in one and only one of my Yala Swamp.

Is it possible that the Blue Fire Fin is a dark morph variant of whatever species it is.

If it is, has anyone had experience with breeding dark morphs Vic variants. Do they breed true or do they throw both dark morphs and normal morphs? If so, is there a percentage that might point to a recessive gene like you see in angelfish species (like the platinum gene, a truely recessive gene).

Food for thought.


Tue Nov 02, 2010 4:54 am
Profile       
Gender place holder
Top
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 6:31 am 
Offline
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:32 am
Posts: 888
Location: Florida Flag
Whatever they are they are quite pretty!

_________________
I think I need a bigger tank......


Tue Nov 02, 2010 6:31 am
Profile       
Gender place holder
Top
 Post subject: Re: Blue Fir Fins or not
PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:21 pm 
Offline
Website Creation Team Site Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2009 5:18 am
Posts: 409
Images: 22
Location: Columbus, Ohio Flag
KingLucky";p="7903 wrote:
There has bee a big debate on this fish. I acquired 6 breeding size fish (2 m and 4 f) from a local breeder. He says they are Hap. sp. Blue Fire Fins. I am not a Vic expert so I assume he was right.


The debate about this species has been going on for a whole lot of years. Is "Blue Fire Fin" a real species or not? I've avoided keeping this fish because I have limited tank space and I've seen a whole lot of suspicious variations of this vic. But color variation isn't exactly conclusive proof of anything in the world of Victorians. The one thing that seems to be fairly constant is the bright yellow anal fin in the males. I don't believe that this fish exists outside the United States and Canada (I think?)

So I'm really not much help here except that I can say the first three pictures are identical to what I've most frequently seen sold as Blue Fire Fin. Although I would have expected Deadmans fish to bear a closer resemblance to your first few pics.

Now having said all that I should also mention that I kept Astatotilapia burtoni years ago. In that species, the dominant male was indeed blue and the subdominant males were yellow. Chistophe (aka Samaki on other sites) mentioned that he had seen that as well in the burtoni. So I guess anything is possible.

Kevin


Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:21 pm
Profile       
Gender place holder
Top
 Post subject: Re: Blue Fir Fins or not
PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 4:26 pm 
Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:33 pm
Posts: 694
Images: 99
thanks otto for the thread. any one who knows me is aware that im a stickler for identification on the species i keep.

from all that i can find on the species it seems some what obsecure.

greg steeves wrote an article on them in the 7/2009 issue of the latteral line.
http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cac ... VAVhoEClBw

the fish in that article looks much diffrent. however he states that it resembles xystichromis flame back as do the above pictures. but the photos in that article are diffrent from ottos breeders and the offspring of them.

then there is this representation of the species. from sam borsteins page and this looks very similare to the fish i have but when stressed. side by side comparison.

Image
Imageto me this species is very very nice looking i just would like to know what it is.
maybe tekinal will chime in or maybe greg steeves himself.

i sent a picture to snakeskinner of the ok.aa, and he said his fire frin look nothing like the ones i sent. {above} i believe that his strain came from greg steeves. so hopefully some one can help us figure this out.
who knows they may all be hap blue fire fin

_________________
PARALIBIDOCHROMIS CHILOTES WANTED. 8)


Tue Nov 02, 2010 4:26 pm
Gender place holder
Top
 Post subject: Re: Blue Fir Fins or not
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 5:25 pm 
Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:33 pm
Posts: 694
Images: 99
excerpts taken from a thread on the net, and may be some good lines of thought.



Years ago,, while examining the cichlid fauna of Lake Victoria, Humphrey Greenwood happened upon an area of shallow water that was almost exclusively inhabitable by Haplochromis lividus. He said they were striking blue, the males sheen reflecting in the shallow water while displaying to females. It apparently was quite an impressive sight that captivated him for sometime. When he returned to the area a few years later, one of the first locations he wanted to see what the area where all the H lividus were. When he got there he found the area was inhabited by a different species, blue shouldered but acting in much the same manner the H. lividus were a few years earlier. There fish were sampled and turned out to be Haplochromis lividus. The entire population had morphed coloration in a really short period of time; not just a few individuals, the entire population at that location. He couldn't find a reason why this had occurred. The environmental conditions seemed the same as did water parameters. The fish found an advantage of some sort to changing color and when it happened, the entire colony did this at presumably the same time.

To take this further, if furu could do something this drastic within a couple generations in the wild, what are they capable of in the captive environments we provide for them? It's somewhat amazing that they have retained the appearance of their wild ancestors considering what little we know of them.


This is interesting. Seehousen has been working with color morphs in his lab. It seems to be the most plastic characteristic in the cichlid family.

Just something to keep in mind: how WE define and identify species is somewhat removed from biology. Get 10 biologists in a room and ask them to define what a species is and you'll get nine answers and one biologist jumping out the window. Even Darwin recognized that there were different types of birds, but couldn't settle on what exactly it took to distinguish these types as species. For most biologists (and seemingly the rule for hobbyists), we use a concept called the Biological Species Concept. the core of this concept is that two different populations are considered different species when they can't interbreed "successfully". "Success" is highly subjective, encompassing things like fertility, reproductive behavior, and wild survival of the resulting hybrids. The BSC has an array of exceptions and difficulties, but of all species concepts, it at least has a practical definition: slap them in a tank together an see if they make babies. If they don't, great. If they do.... well then there's a lot of testing to be done."
I have to put my finger on this.
The species concept doesn't fit at all the Victoria cichlids species flock, if we retain only the non inerbreeding notion, this leads to have only one species in the entire lake and probably , it could be the same for the Malawi flock; Different species can cross and make viable offspring. The hybrids can reproduce and are fertiles .On other hand, Olee seehausen did show that hybridation is a part of the speciation in this lake( in the article about the congolese origin of the Victorian super flock)
This concept was raised when the scientific world did not know the faunas of the Malawi and Victoria drainages. So it is not actually really clear. the pelagic fauna of the Victoria lake for example was composed with at least 3 or 4 species of Zooplanctivores ( H.piceatus, H.pyrrocephalus, H.argens, H.macrops) sharing the same habitat,eating the same food, but, they were segregated by the water column they occupied in the day ( some were closer to the surface while others did searched their food near the substrate)the places where they were spawning and the cycles of their reproductively time, also they were segregated by very little variations in their behaviors( the butterfly dance is not exactly the same) so the entire concept has to be revisited to better fill the new discoveries.
we know today that 2 species can cross breed and make viable and fertiles individuals. Now, the genetics studies enlight in a different manner the species concept.
natural Louis:"As far as adaptation to captivity goes, would this create a new species? Maybe, but those changes would have to cause some sort of reproductive isolation. Changes in the dentition would be unlikely to do this, even though we use it as a character to key out fish (buck teeth doesn't seem to be a huge turn off for cichlids). Changes in color patterns would be much more of an issue (although we as hobbyists often select for exaggeration of male traits, just like gals). In terms of keeping species alive in captivity for reintroduction, I'd be much more worried about the effect of captive adaptation on wild-survival. Zoos and biologists are starting to tackle this problem using cryopreservation. Rather than repeated inbreeding over generations, we can maintain current wild genetic diversity by collecting gametes and freezing them. When we're ready to reintroduce, frankenstein some babies by combining male whosits and girl whatsits in a jar and you've got individuals to release sans domestication. Cool stuff."
Many of the institutions that work with rare animals or endangered species do facilitate the exchange of sexual mature animals between them to keep the genetic diversity. If we do so in our scale, we can keep our fishes as genetically diverses as they were when we got them. The dentition is something adaptable but it has also a genetic basis( the plan, the form, the number of rows and teeth, etc...) that won't move until we do not encourage mutations to appear.The example of Astatoreochromis alluaudi is very usefull to show it. If the fish is feed only with soft food, it won't devellop its pharyngeal molariform teeth. But they are still there( they are less develloped). If the second breed generations is feeding with snails, then the teeth will be as develloped as the wild animals. We have a hypertrophied lips species, H.chilotes, if the fish don't have some hard substrate to dig or some rough rock to search its food at the basis, then the lips won't be as develloped as if he has to use its lips on hard stuffs. But the hypertrophied lips can devellop so it shows that the genetical background doesn't move and is less plastic than the morphology

_________________
PARALIBIDOCHROMIS CHILOTES WANTED. 8)


Thu Nov 04, 2010 5:25 pm
Gender place holder
Top
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 5:26 pm 
Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:33 pm
Posts: 694
Images: 99
otto i would stay with the hap blue fire fin. until it can be disproven. i think they are absoulty great looking and decided to keep my group and see what happens here.
great topic and great fish. :D

_________________
PARALIBIDOCHROMIS CHILOTES WANTED. 8)


Thu Nov 04, 2010 5:26 pm
Gender place holder
Top
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 9:16 am 
Offline
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 6:08 am
Posts: 952
Images: 149
Location: Tampa. FL Flag
i found a group that i will be getting next week. hopefully we can get a good id on them as a species.

The ones i am getting should be about 2". I will start to document their growth. I just wonder who this guy got them from?

It is a guy in kansas city mo.

Did you ever send any out that way? I am also getting a group of uganda reds from him. I am taking a risk since i can not confirm the ids before receiving the fish. but such is life.

_________________
living the dream :wink:


Looking for hard to find supplies, check us out on the web.
www.ftffacoop.com


Mon Nov 22, 2010 9:16 am
Gender place holder
Top
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:05 am 
Offline
Website Creation Team Site Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2009 5:18 am
Posts: 409
Images: 22
Location: Columbus, Ohio Flag
dre_day";p="8130 wrote:
I am taking a risk since i can not confirm the ids before receiving the fish. but such is life.


To some extent, all Victorian cichlid keepers need to develop this attitude. Sometimes take a chance, treat whatever you get with a healthy bit of skepticism, but in the end don't get too upset because there will be plenty of times when it won't work out.

Kevin
(Just like one of my purchases this past weekend at the Ohio Cichlid Extravaganza didn't quite result in what I thought I was buying.)


Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:05 am
Profile       
Gender place holder
Top
 Post subject: Re: Blue Fir Fins or not
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:42 pm 
Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:33 pm
Posts: 694
Images: 99
dre, it will be interesting to see what you get, this is one of the species that intrigues me.

the others i posted above and this fish came from the same batch



Image

Image

Image

Image


no comes this question, do we as committed vic heads, spend the space time and money on a species that is so much in question? or should we rather put that effort into species that are verified and even have a collection point to lend credance as to thier validity? just something to open up for conversation.

obviously mr. steeves wrote an article on them, i have been looking on the net for a halotype and has of yet cant fine one. that doesnt mean that it isnt out there.

anyway dre im looking forward to seeing the pics of them when they arrive.

_________________
PARALIBIDOCHROMIS CHILOTES WANTED. 8)


Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:42 pm
Gender place holder
Top
 Post subject: Re: Blue Fir Fins or not
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:27 pm 
Offline
Website Creation Team Site Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2009 5:18 am
Posts: 409
Images: 22
Location: Columbus, Ohio Flag
deadman";p="8134 wrote:
no comes this question, do we as committed vic heads, spend the space time and money on a species that is so much in question?

That's up to the individual. I have chosen to live with limited tank space so there is no way I would purposely buy a species I'm not sure of. But if I accidentally end up with something questionable, then the decision gets tougher. I generally keep them and more or less live with my mistake, but should I breed them? If they breed and I cull them, I might be contributing to the demise of a species simply due to a general lack of knowledge. But then I don't want to distribute questionable fish either. One can afford to have a more strict policy toward fish from Lake Malawi or Tanganyika. But the decision isn't as easy when the fish are endangered and not commonly available in the hobby.


deadman";p="8134 wrote:
or should we rather put that effort into species that are verified and even have a collection point to lend credence as to their validity?

Sure we would, but the whole collection point criteria can get pretty tough when talking about Victorians. Look what happens with all the nyererei in the hobby. Most people have absolutely no idea what the collection point of their nyererei is, yet they assign a collection point based upon pictures on the internet. There's not a whole lot of validity to that approach. Some of these locations are reasonably close to eachother and several different color morphs may exist at one location.

Kevin


Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:27 pm
Profile       
Gender place holder
Top
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:42 pm 
Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:33 pm
Posts: 694
Images: 99
well said kevin.

_________________
PARALIBIDOCHROMIS CHILOTES WANTED. 8)


Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:42 pm
Gender place holder
Top
 Post subject: Re: Blue Fir Fins or not
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:08 pm 
Offline
Veteran Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2009 12:44 am
Posts: 1260
Images: 6
Agreed 100%, you said what I wanted to say but much better than I could've Kevin. I think though it may be hard to see we are lucky that the species in the US which have been mixed up are not in the 100's. So though right now we are a limited group of enthusiasts with some luck new comers can help us keep some of the questionable fish going. Giving them names, perhaps bold non typical Vic names could help keep them separated from the general populations of known species for the time being. The most important thing is to keep good records of everything from here on out, so in 10 or 20 years it isn't an even bigger mess.


Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:08 pm
Profile       
Gender place holder
Top
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Page 1 of 2      [ 19 posts ] Next topic Top Who posted Bookmark topic Previous topic
Go to page  1, 2  
Post a new topic Post a reply


Who is online

Registered users: No registered users


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
The teamDelete all board cookiesContact Board Administration • All times are UTC - 8 hours

phpBBIntegraMODStargate Portal