Cichlids of Victoria

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Do you agree with ACA's now allowing hybrids?
Yes, I think its great! Now i can cross my VICS!!! 13%  13%  [ 1 ]
I don't care, they are just fish. 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
No, i can't believe they are allowing hybrids. 88%  88%  [ 7 ]
Total votes : 8
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 Post subject: ACA now allows hybrids
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:42 pm 
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Well, the ACA BOT voted to allow 4 ornamental classes classes for the annual ACA show.

what this means is hybrids and genus crosses like Flowerhorn, OB peacocks and species crosses like PANDA/BLACK WIDOW FRONTOSA are now going to be allowed in the show.

What do you think about the ACA doing this?
Do you consider it progressive?
Do you think it will encourage more breeding of VIC crosses?
We have no idea what we buy sometimes, will this increase the unknown VICS mixing in the hobby since ACA has no problem with it?

I guess the shame in owning or selling VIC crosses is over, since the ACA is OK with it.

Guess it's time for me to create that Albino OB Haplochromis sp. "thereuterion".
gotta be a winner.



Proposition 2010-25 Hybrids & Line Bred Cichlids in the ACA

- New World Ornamental Large
- New World Ornamental Small
- Old World Ornamental Large
- Old World Ornamental Small

The host club of shows maintains the right to ignore the above and set ornamental classes of their own.

This division will includes all hybrid and line bred fish. (all unnatural looking fish, whether albino, long fin, other line bred varieties)**.

Fish in the Ornamental Division are not eligible to win a Best in Show. They are eligible for People's choice, Sheridan Tank Buster and Best in Ornamental Division.

Entrants in all other divisions must have a valid binomial name (or binomen). In the absence of a binomial name (undescribed species) a genus and location is acceptable.

Fish described by a hybrid formula (i.e. Geophagus altifrons x Satanoperca daemon) would not be accepted in any division other than Ornamental.

Hybrids will not allowed to be sold, auctioned or traded in the Trading Post.

ACA will not allow official ACA Show Sanctioning if a Hybrid will be judged for best cichlid. The Best Cichlid Medallion must be awarded to cichlid with a valid binomial name.

Publication of articles about Hybrids & Line Bred fish is at the sole discretion of the Editor of the Buntbarsche Bulletin.

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Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:42 pm
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 5:49 am 
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This sucks.

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Tue Nov 23, 2010 5:49 am
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 8:11 am 
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It is not so much the "ACA now allows hybrids" as "The ACA has now allowed the host fish club the ability to control the show they are sponsoring using local club rules."

This is called freedom by Patriots all over 'merica.

This has been debated by the ACA for a while. They have been loosing members as places (web sites & clubs) that cater to "Hybrids" gain them in leaps and bounds. While I can't say exactly the reasoning, I see that by including them, they may open some hybrid keeper's mind to learning about natural color morphs and pure lines or biology in general.

Truth be told, aside from my snarky political jab at libertarian/conservative ideologues, lumping all "unnatural fish" together is a naturalist's dream. If it doesn't look "natural", as in the scientific de.scription of the fish, into that "Ornamental" category it goes.

I love it in one sense!

Yet, I do not like the idea of including line bred fish with hybrids.

I put a lot of pressure on my self to select for "natural" forms and morphs with my line bred fish. I don't believe it is fair to call our Victorians Ornamental simply because we line breed for their "natural" de.scriptions. This may create additional pressure on Wild Caught stocks.
Ultimately:
"ACA will not allow official ACA Show Sanctioning if a Hybrid will be judged for best cichlid. The Best Cichlid Medallion must be awarded to cichlid with a valid binomial name. "

You may also see hot Aulonacara jacobfreibergi Otter Point Eureka appear as Non ornamental fish; it has a valid binomial name, can you prove it was line bred?.... how about F1 from wild out cross to line bred is that still Ornamental? How many generations from wild is considered line bred?

I say this as this kind of fish (Eureka albino) has already won Best Cichlid in an ACA show in the past.

So I do see some problems at shows.

In the end it is the host club's decision. I believe this opens up the ACA to more people.

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 Post subject: Re: ACA now allows hybrids
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 9:44 am 
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Well, they certainly needed to make a decision one way or another. Everyone got all hung up on the definition of a hybrid and where to draw the line on line-bred fish. It even got into trying to define two same species locational variants breeding, and all the other potential combinations like fish injected with that stuff that makes them glow etc. The whole thing reminded me of the supreme court justice that said he didn't know how to define p ornography but he sure knew it when he saw it. We all know a Flowerhorn or a blood parrot when we see one

I would absolutely hate for the ACA to be seen as accepting hybrids as a desirable hobby fish. But I don't particularly care what other people do in their own fish tanks as long as I can reliably keep them out of mine. So if hybrids are in the show I really don't care. They aren't going to win any best of show prizes so that at least indicates how they are viewed by the ACA.

Kevin


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 10:47 pm 
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The host club always had the right to do what they wanted. Thats how the ACA decided they did not really have to take a stance. It was a chicken stance, but that is what they did.

The difference now is that the ACA created 4 Ornamental (hybrid) classes.

Because they did not want to alienate the Discus people they had to come up with something to not get rid of them.

I'm glad they came to a decision because the ACA is slow at doing that. I just think its the wrong decision and i know that none of the big names agree with this vote.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 4:19 am 
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Its a first step in the wrong direction.
Big deal, so a hybrid won't win best in show, that can easily change.
More and more hybrid keepers will join the ACA, then run for office, they then can simply make the change.
Nothing is keeping flowerhorn people from taking over leadership at the ACA. The want to include everybody is going to be the downfall.

I really think we should form a new association.
The WCAA.
Wild Cichlid Association of America.

Or AAWTC.
American Association of Wild Type Cichlids.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:35 am 
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You can always form a "natural" type fish society under the ACA banner and keep hybrids out.

I would avoid "wild" at all costs in the general hobby. The pressure on wild stocks is already unsustainable for most species. I for one do not keep wild fish and would encourage anyone to not purchase them.
While you may feel that encouraging no hybrids is a benefit to a hobby, you are also encouraging something worse in my opinion. The hybrids we own in the US have no chance of getting a foothold in the natural lakes. The decimation of a species has already been documented by over fishing again and again. It is one of the biggest reasons for the loss of fish stocks, loss of habitat is the largest. Your purest bent endangers the wild fish you love.
So breed your pure lines of fish. Out cross them to other domesticated pure fish. Select for "natural" characteristics. Don't worry about "wild" fish for fresh DNA. That can always be accomplished with domesticated stock. DNA only changes by mutation or hybridization. Most mutations cause cancers. It is hardly likely that our fish DNA in captive stocks will mutate unrecognizably in our lifetimes.

And as a side note on hybrids; Ozzy Osbourne submitted his DNA to science because no one could explain why he could consume so many drugs and still be alive. They found he is hybrid with Neanderthal:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... rne-genome

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 Post subject: Re: ACA now allows hybrids
PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 12:04 pm 
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This is awesome, I love being right ! I used to always argue that there hadn't been enough testing and I personally felt Neanderthal blood was still somewhere on earth. Very cool http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... me-study-r


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 8:01 pm 
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There would have to be if you think about it.
A horny man is a horny man, and if he can't score any female H. sapiens, you can darn well bet he will try for H. neandertalis.

If sheep and chickens ain't safe, you gotta believe.
So unless they had such different chromosome pairs that the product of the union was not viable, there would be some genetic info remaining in today's man.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 8:06 pm 
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teknikAL";p="8189 wrote:
The hybrids we own in the US have no chance of getting a foothold in the natural lakes.


I'm assuming you mean VIctorian Cichlids?

There are plenty hybrids, cichlid or otherwise that can make it in the USA if let go.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 8:55 pm 
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its a big mistake from the ACA people and the results is more mistakes and serius menace for fish species
whats next ?


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 Post subject: Re: ACA now allows hybrids
PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 3:55 pm 
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I have 2 flowerhorns, but they are pets not breeders (they are also great for eating culled fry :wink: ) I do plan on breeding my discus though. But I do agree they have gone a bit overboard on allowing hybrids in......

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Thu Nov 25, 2010 3:55 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 3:43 am 
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my two cents on the subject. it appears that there was a demand for this and any thing that is sucessfull meets the demand with supply, in this case providing a place for thoes who love thier hybrids to do what they do. with the growing numbers of people who lean twards hybrids that are commonly kept in asain countrys growing, and this population growing, in the hobby { at least in my neck of the woods} while the other is dwindling. to me the aca decision looks more like a means of survival, and a sign of the times we live in.
as with anythng else if you dont like it dont support it. if you do like it support it.

our lake victoria species hybridize naturally, and evolve rather quickly. documented in as short of time as 4 years.

in some ways we demonise the hybrid and very little is devoted to them i dont see many areas where there is a place to post and discuss the hybrids that we all come in contact with. in some ways if imo, if there was a designated place on the fourms for hybrid it would help define more clearly what the real thing is in the case of victorians, and also expose thoes who dont care about the "purity" of the species. and may help document subtil changes in our in many times long term captive species. but usually this topic among victorian buffs is demonised and new keeper who dont know better get disgouraged when it happens to them. and we may be able to hold on to some of them by our own expierances being designated a place for all to see. and they arent the first. regretabaly this has happened to one of our own. KINGLUCKY and if you all would please give him a shout and encourage him not to give up. he placed all his vics up for sale after learning that his blue fire fins may be hybrid. :cry: :cry:

i completly understand, having been there myself.

as kevin as said as vic keepers we must be prepared for the hybrid and not get to upset when it happens to us.

have we ever kept a hybrid for a couple months because it looked good?
the aca is just meeting a demand. good or bad only time will tell.

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